Married Priests
The following is a small email thread that I sent out a couple weeks ago. I involves my Uncle Miron, a wise old sage of a man, and myself (I get no cool afterthought).
Me:
Good article from Rev. Donald Cozzens. I guess he's a convert?
Nonetheless, his argument makes sense and I've always thought that priests should be allowed to marry.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/05/15/cozzens.celibacy.discussion/index.html
Thoughts?
Uncle Miron:
I agree, he makes an excellent argument, but to me, it is just that, a very good point of view backed-up with historical facts and it is hard to argue with Rev. Cozzens' logic, so I will not even try. Instead, I would like to give my humble thoughts as to why a real hard look needs to be taken as to why priests should or should not be allowed to marry. Too, unlike the Rev., I am not going to even try to get into the mind of God. Additionally, large, old, entrenched "businesses" like the Roman Catholic Church move slow. Gosh, look at all the negative fallout that came out of and still exists as a result of Vatican II, but that is a whole other issue.
To allow priests to marry just to solve the shortage is not a good reason, it is too simple of an answer to, what I believe, is a serious and economic issue. My Mom used to say, How can a priest give marriage advice when they have never been married?" I never bought in to her reasoning and we always were on opposite sides of the issue of married priests with Mom being pro-marriage. In all due respect to my Mom, her question, which is only a tiny bit of her side of the issue, is the same as saying that if I am depressed, I need to go to a psycologist who is also depressed in order to get help and one in a wheelchair at that would be better yet! Now I do not want to argue with the Carl Yung "Wounded Healer Theory" which I believe is valid in many ways, but I digress.
Priests, I believe, should be in the business of saving souls, bringing folks to have a personal relationship with Jesus and tending the flock. They should not have to worry about all kinds of "non-religious" work that takes then away from their true work at hand. A parish the size of St. Elizabeth should at least have a part-time, if not a full-time, business manager to handle the day-to-day operations of the parish. Surly a simplification, but Father Dale should not have to be concerned if the parish monthly utility bills have been paid. Spring-A-Rama is next week, a time when the parish community has the opportunity to come together, mingle and have fellowship. Sorry, it is about earning money to pay bills. Same with bingo, which a priest usually has to take time out of his "important" duties to say hi to the folks.
If we, the flock, want a church building, a school building, a rectory, etc., it needs to be paid for, period. The people in the pews do not want to hear about finances, hey, we all know the Roman Catholic Church is wealthy beyond belief why does our parish need "my" hard earned money? Let the Vatican sell some of those rare paintings and send the money to St. Elizabeth of Hungary Church! All of this brings me to the economic issues surrounding priests being allowed to marry. If your parish priest is married he is entitled to a salary that will support his family. Too, if the parish, at no cost, is not going to supply a private home for the priest and his wife, he needs a bigger salary. Throw a few or more children into the mix and instead of the priest being able to have a clear head while visiting the sick in the hospital, he is worried if he has enough money to purchase ground meat to go with the Hamburger Helper that is planned for tonight's dinner at home with the wife and children. No cost health insurance would be a nice job related benefit for the priest and his family along with a food allowance.
Oh yeah, I can just hear those pious folks on the parish committee, "I have to pay for part or all of my health benifits, why not Father". "Food allowance, are you kidding, let Father apply for Food Stamps". "Better yet, why doesn't Father's wife get a job outside the home just like my wife; I do not care if they have five children, that horney couple, why don't they practice birth control". $50,000 a year salary, ha, I do not earn that much and no priest worth his weight would even ask for that kind of money, don't they take some poverty vow, and too, no priest is worth that kind of money, he does not do any real labor". And on and on and on, the folks just do not want to pay the piper. Also, what about the stress of having a wife and children? Selfish, you bet, I want my priest treating me, at any time I want him to, as if I am the only concern he has during the moments he spends with me and he better be available on my time schedule, his wife and kids will just have to wait. "Father gave me some advice I did not appreciate, let's take a vote to fire him, you mean the last parish leaders gave him a five year contract, well, let's just buy him out and get a priest who cares about my feelings".
Purely from an economic standpoint, I do not think the folks are willing to pay the price of married priests. As it is, so many already balk at giving to support their parish.
Then there is the bad logic, if priests were allowed to marry there would not have been or ever will be another sex scandle. Not true! Being married, I believe, has nothing to do with perverts going after young boys. Again, another issue altogether.
If you are drawn to the priesthood then go for it with its rules and regulations. Every vocation comes with a price and a set of work rules. If you stray with one or many female relationships, that is between you and God. Everyone reading this knows of a certain priest who had affairs with women and even fathered a child, and I am willing to bet that every one of us would agree he was one of the "best" priests we ever knew, a priest among priests, who did what most of us would probably agree is what priests should do, watched over and nurtered the flock given to him to care for and love.
One question, why have you always thought priests should be allowed to marry? I would very much like you to expand on that and tear into my words above as I enjoy a lively debate of serious issues facing us. Take care...Uncle M
Me:
While I agree with most of what you say U.M., I don't think that finances should prevent priests from being married. Nor do I think that a priest needs to be payed enough to support a family. There is nothing in canonical law or anywhere else that says the wife can't work to support the bulk of the household. A priest being married is no different. If it is the economic impact of the married priest on the congregation, then the priest's wife needs to get a job. They are no different from any other ordinary wife. At least that's how I see it.
This is purely a matter of the church sticking to a decision that some guy made 800 years ago or so, just because. I understand that you want the priest to have his congregation at the front of his mind at all times, but what's the difference between his longing for married life constantly tugging at his mind and his eight year old's baseball game at three o'clock?
As for the priest who had affairs with women and fathered a child...I genuinely don't know who you are talking about. Maybe that was before my time. But you called him one of the "best" priests. So obviously his affair didn't affect his duties and in that shows that a married priest has all of the potential to do his job accordingly.
When a company has a set of rules that hinders many of it's potential employees, so much so that no one applies for a job there, they need to change those rules.
Uncle Miron:
Your points are well taken and well presented. However, having been married for almost 31 years, the amount of stress of just being married, let alone having child/ren can, at times be so powerful that you can find yourself going to the brink. Married priests, just like regular folks, are also going to end up divorced priests, how do we deal with that...it is forbidden in the Roman Catholic Church. If you do not like the rules a job presents to you, do not apply. Again, my point that if the idea of married priests is just to attract more applicants to solve the shortage problem, to me, that is not a sound decision. Non-Roman Catholic married reverand's wifes have demands on them too, like having tea with the ladies, organizing whatever, etc. I do not think the wife of a priest should have to juggle a career, along with every thing else expected of her, just to put food on the table. She could be more of an asset to her husband in helping behind the scenes and even helping to win over converts. We need more lay people involved in the church and that does not mean the wife of a priest. Perhaps I am stuck in my traditional background, but I want my priest to be focousing on the flock, not being worried that his wife and/or child/ren have the flu and are puking their guts out. To me, priests are not like everyone else, it take a special person to be a priest as it would take a special kind of woman to be married to a priest. She would have to understand that her marriage is going to take a back seat to her husband's primary work duties. The priest is "Father" as representative of our Father in heaven who almost certainly is not married...Jesus said there is no marriage in heaven. Too, I believe a married priest deserves to be paid a decent salary, provided with housing, retirement, and so forth. If his job is just like very other job, which I do not believe it is, then he should receive a commpetitive salary with benefits, period. At this point, in closing, I am still very interested in your explaination as to why you have always felt that Roman Catholic priest should be allowed to be married, what is the benefits, do you see any drawbacks?
Me:
I can't honestly speak to what married life is like, only what I've seen. My parents, while it always seems like a good time, must have gone through hard times. I have no way of really knowing that as they are both finance and personal stuff ninjas who don't ever share that stuff with us...and probably for good reason.
Nonetheless, worry about divorced priests is like worrying about getting in a car accident every time you get into a car. It doesn't help anyone and it will never stop it from happening. Allowing priests access to the internet is allowing pornography directly into their homes...should we disallow the internet due to its possibility of sin? After all, priests are truly just men, and men sin...sometimes constantly.
When I said that allowing priests to marry could be used to attract more applicants, I suppose I misspoke. What I meant was that I am sure there are many, many men who are called to the priesthood but do not act on it due to their desire to marry and have a family of their own in Christ. In my eyes it doesn't make any sense, religiously or otherwise, to forbid a priest to marry.
I also don't think that any more stress would be put on a wife of a priest than would be put on the wife a school superintendent or community leader. Sure their husbands may make more money, but that is not always the case. To say that priests should be allowed to marry in part because of any undue stress presented to the spouse isn't part of the argument. If a woman wants to enter into a relationship with a priest prior to or after his ordination, they will surely understand the implications of their rule. Not just any woman would agree to those terms. And if they do agree to those terms I have no pity on them.
When a priest is ordained, his memory isn't erased. He still has family...brothers, sister, nieces, nephews mothers and fathers. Any one of those family members could take his mind off of his flock at any given time. I know that when Jaedon, Carmin, Olivia or Luke is sick I constantly think about them. However, that doesn't stop me from performing my duties. To think that a priest couldn't do the same isn't necessarily fair. I know it is different when it is your wife or children with the problems, but I think my point is somewhat clear.
All of the excuses for not allowing a priest to marry are trivial in my opinion. The benefits of allowing a priest to marry are widespread. Anywhere from greater numbers of men applying to be priests to happier more fulfilled lives of men who have always wanted to be husbands and fathers in the biological sense. There is no biblical context in which disciples were forbade from marrying. If Jesus didn't have a problem with it, I don't think some zealous 12th century bishop or pope should.
Me:
Good article from Rev. Donald Cozzens. I guess he's a convert?
Nonetheless, his argument makes sense and I've always thought that priests should be allowed to marry.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/05/
Thoughts?
Uncle Miron:
I agree, he makes an excellent argument, but to me, it is just that, a very good point of view backed-up with historical facts and it is hard to argue with Rev. Cozzens' logic, so I will not even try. Instead, I would like to give my humble thoughts as to why a real hard look needs to be taken as to why priests should or should not be allowed to marry. Too, unlike the Rev., I am not going to even try to get into the mind of God. Additionally, large, old, entrenched "businesses" like the Roman Catholic Church move slow. Gosh, look at all the negative fallout that came out of and still exists as a result of Vatican II, but that is a whole other issue.
To allow priests to marry just to solve the shortage is not a good reason, it is too simple of an answer to, what I believe, is a serious and economic issue. My Mom used to say, How can a priest give marriage advice when they have never been married?" I never bought in to her reasoning and we always were on opposite sides of the issue of married priests with Mom being pro-marriage. In all due respect to my Mom, her question, which is only a tiny bit of her side of the issue, is the same as saying that if I am depressed, I need to go to a psycologist who is also depressed in order to get help and one in a wheelchair at that would be better yet! Now I do not want to argue with the Carl Yung "Wounded Healer Theory" which I believe is valid in many ways, but I digress.
Priests, I believe, should be in the business of saving souls, bringing folks to have a personal relationship with Jesus and tending the flock. They should not have to worry about all kinds of "non-religious" work that takes then away from their true work at hand. A parish the size of St. Elizabeth should at least have a part-time, if not a full-time, business manager to handle the day-to-day operations of the parish. Surly a simplification, but Father Dale should not have to be concerned if the parish monthly utility bills have been paid. Spring-A-Rama is next week, a time when the parish community has the opportunity to come together, mingle and have fellowship. Sorry, it is about earning money to pay bills. Same with bingo, which a priest usually has to take time out of his "important" duties to say hi to the folks.
If we, the flock, want a church building, a school building, a rectory, etc., it needs to be paid for, period. The people in the pews do not want to hear about finances, hey, we all know the Roman Catholic Church is wealthy beyond belief why does our parish need "my" hard earned money? Let the Vatican sell some of those rare paintings and send the money to St. Elizabeth of Hungary Church! All of this brings me to the economic issues surrounding priests being allowed to marry. If your parish priest is married he is entitled to a salary that will support his family. Too, if the parish, at no cost, is not going to supply a private home for the priest and his wife, he needs a bigger salary. Throw a few or more children into the mix and instead of the priest being able to have a clear head while visiting the sick in the hospital, he is worried if he has enough money to purchase ground meat to go with the Hamburger Helper that is planned for tonight's dinner at home with the wife and children. No cost health insurance would be a nice job related benefit for the priest and his family along with a food allowance.
Oh yeah, I can just hear those pious folks on the parish committee, "I have to pay for part or all of my health benifits, why not Father". "Food allowance, are you kidding, let Father apply for Food Stamps". "Better yet, why doesn't Father's wife get a job outside the home just like my wife; I do not care if they have five children, that horney couple, why don't they practice birth control". $50,000 a year salary, ha, I do not earn that much and no priest worth his weight would even ask for that kind of money, don't they take some poverty vow, and too, no priest is worth that kind of money, he does not do any real labor". And on and on and on, the folks just do not want to pay the piper. Also, what about the stress of having a wife and children? Selfish, you bet, I want my priest treating me, at any time I want him to, as if I am the only concern he has during the moments he spends with me and he better be available on my time schedule, his wife and kids will just have to wait. "Father gave me some advice I did not appreciate, let's take a vote to fire him, you mean the last parish leaders gave him a five year contract, well, let's just buy him out and get a priest who cares about my feelings".
Purely from an economic standpoint, I do not think the folks are willing to pay the price of married priests. As it is, so many already balk at giving to support their parish.
Then there is the bad logic, if priests were allowed to marry there would not have been or ever will be another sex scandle. Not true! Being married, I believe, has nothing to do with perverts going after young boys. Again, another issue altogether.
If you are drawn to the priesthood then go for it with its rules and regulations. Every vocation comes with a price and a set of work rules. If you stray with one or many female relationships, that is between you and God. Everyone reading this knows of a certain priest who had affairs with women and even fathered a child, and I am willing to bet that every one of us would agree he was one of the "best" priests we ever knew, a priest among priests, who did what most of us would probably agree is what priests should do, watched over and nurtered the flock given to him to care for and love.
One question, why have you always thought priests should be allowed to marry? I would very much like you to expand on that and tear into my words above as I enjoy a lively debate of serious issues facing us. Take care...Uncle M
Me:
While I agree with most of what you say U.M., I don't think that finances should prevent priests from being married. Nor do I think that a priest needs to be payed enough to support a family. There is nothing in canonical law or anywhere else that says the wife can't work to support the bulk of the household. A priest being married is no different. If it is the economic impact of the married priest on the congregation, then the priest's wife needs to get a job. They are no different from any other ordinary wife. At least that's how I see it.
This is purely a matter of the church sticking to a decision that some guy made 800 years ago or so, just because. I understand that you want the priest to have his congregation at the front of his mind at all times, but what's the difference between his longing for married life constantly tugging at his mind and his eight year old's baseball game at three o'clock?
As for the priest who had affairs with women and fathered a child...I genuinely don't know who you are talking about. Maybe that was before my time. But you called him one of the "best" priests. So obviously his affair didn't affect his duties and in that shows that a married priest has all of the potential to do his job accordingly.
When a company has a set of rules that hinders many of it's potential employees, so much so that no one applies for a job there, they need to change those rules.
Uncle Miron:
Your points are well taken and well presented. However, having been married for almost 31 years, the amount of stress of just being married, let alone having child/ren can, at times be so powerful that you can find yourself going to the brink. Married priests, just like regular folks, are also going to end up divorced priests, how do we deal with that...it is forbidden in the Roman Catholic Church. If you do not like the rules a job presents to you, do not apply. Again, my point that if the idea of married priests is just to attract more applicants to solve the shortage problem, to me, that is not a sound decision. Non-Roman Catholic married reverand's wifes have demands on them too, like having tea with the ladies, organizing whatever, etc. I do not think the wife of a priest should have to juggle a career, along with every thing else expected of her, just to put food on the table. She could be more of an asset to her husband in helping behind the scenes and even helping to win over converts. We need more lay people involved in the church and that does not mean the wife of a priest. Perhaps I am stuck in my traditional background, but I want my priest to be focousing on the flock, not being worried that his wife and/or child/ren have the flu and are puking their guts out. To me, priests are not like everyone else, it take a special person to be a priest as it would take a special kind of woman to be married to a priest. She would have to understand that her marriage is going to take a back seat to her husband's primary work duties. The priest is "Father" as representative of our Father in heaven who almost certainly is not married...Jesus said there is no marriage in heaven. Too, I believe a married priest deserves to be paid a decent salary, provided with housing, retirement, and so forth. If his job is just like very other job, which I do not believe it is, then he should receive a commpetitive salary with benefits, period. At this point, in closing, I am still very interested in your explaination as to why you have always felt that Roman Catholic priest should be allowed to be married, what is the benefits, do you see any drawbacks?
Me:
I can't honestly speak to what married life is like, only what I've seen. My parents, while it always seems like a good time, must have gone through hard times. I have no way of really knowing that as they are both finance and personal stuff ninjas who don't ever share that stuff with us...and probably for good reason.
Nonetheless, worry about divorced priests is like worrying about getting in a car accident every time you get into a car. It doesn't help anyone and it will never stop it from happening. Allowing priests access to the internet is allowing pornography directly into their homes...should we disallow the internet due to its possibility of sin? After all, priests are truly just men, and men sin...sometimes constantly.
When I said that allowing priests to marry could be used to attract more applicants, I suppose I misspoke. What I meant was that I am sure there are many, many men who are called to the priesthood but do not act on it due to their desire to marry and have a family of their own in Christ. In my eyes it doesn't make any sense, religiously or otherwise, to forbid a priest to marry.
I also don't think that any more stress would be put on a wife of a priest than would be put on the wife a school superintendent or community leader. Sure their husbands may make more money, but that is not always the case. To say that priests should be allowed to marry in part because of any undue stress presented to the spouse isn't part of the argument. If a woman wants to enter into a relationship with a priest prior to or after his ordination, they will surely understand the implications of their rule. Not just any woman would agree to those terms. And if they do agree to those terms I have no pity on them.
When a priest is ordained, his memory isn't erased. He still has family...brothers, sister, nieces, nephews mothers and fathers. Any one of those family members could take his mind off of his flock at any given time. I know that when Jaedon, Carmin, Olivia or Luke is sick I constantly think about them. However, that doesn't stop me from performing my duties. To think that a priest couldn't do the same isn't necessarily fair. I know it is different when it is your wife or children with the problems, but I think my point is somewhat clear.
All of the excuses for not allowing a priest to marry are trivial in my opinion. The benefits of allowing a priest to marry are widespread. Anywhere from greater numbers of men applying to be priests to happier more fulfilled lives of men who have always wanted to be husbands and fathers in the biological sense. There is no biblical context in which disciples were forbade from marrying. If Jesus didn't have a problem with it, I don't think some zealous 12th century bishop or pope should.
written by DrAwkwArD at 10:05 AM
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